Setting the Record Straight (re: Fungineer)

[Atreus]

If you're not aware, Fungineer was banned a few nights ago. The ban reason, located here, is stated as "Long-term, repeated micspam, rudeness & snarkiness to players and admins alike along with occasional harassment of other players. Most recently, for harassing a female resident of the den. Straw, camel, broken back." Shortly thereafter, an announcement was put out on a steam group that many of you are a member of which spewed quite a bit of disinformation. I'd like to go ahead and set the record straight here, if for no other reason than to at least provide the other side of things.

My Permaban
posted by IVAN CHESNOKOV @ 06:49PM on August 07, 2012

As some of you may already know, I've been banned from TLD. Since I [CANNOT PROTEST] the ban and Atreus removed me from Steam, I have no other recourse, really.

With most bans, the reason protests exist is because the person made a genuine mistake that they will make an earnest attempt not to repeat, and are sorry for having done so. In this case, it's just another example of a pattern of behavior that you've shown for a very long time now. Nothing was going to change

Regarding the straw that broke the camel's back: When your name is "It's just period blood" and you sound like a guy, and you talk a lot in voice chat, you're asking for it. Atreus overstated the incident in his ban report when he called it "harassment". Harassment is something that is ongoing or repeated. I called them on it, they got more annoying, so I ignored them and it was done, Ten minutes later Atreus gives me the admin warning, well after the incident was over and done. When I tried to defend myself, he told me to drop it, as if I was giving him attitude. This is a man who doesn't like to be told he's wrong, which brings me to my next point.

So, having a somewhat unusual handle, happening to speak in voice chat, and being born with a voice that isn't particularly feminine, gives one carte blanche to call them a trap/call them a man, even when asked to stop? To be quite honest, this reminds me of the people that say that an attractive woman who has on a skimpy outfit is "asking for" anything that comes her way.

Regarding Atreus, and the admins in general: Quite childish. I think the issue here is not that I am detrimental to the community, it's that the admins can't stand the regulars. They're better than the regulars. Despite some regulars being the biggest donors, "You don't own the server, we do." I think Atreus can't stand the fact that people like myself and other regulars are more popular than they are on "their" server. While I cannot say for certain, this is what their behavior and attitude seem to suggest. With the way they wield their hammers, I don't think I have to explain how childish they are.

We've always made it *really* clear that if someone donates, they should expect nothing in return, because donating to something like this with the expectation of something in return is not the reason to donate. As it is, since our inception, we've run one drive a year, because we don't want to take more than we need. As to the rest: The fact that you think this is about popularity at all says a lot more about you than it does us. If we banned anyone who we feared could possibly be popular in-server, our ban list would be a whole lot longer.

Regarding me: The writing has been on the wall for a long time, and those of you who know me know I didn't deserve it; this was personal. But I'm not mad because it simply cannot be helped. The admins made up their minds months ago and have just been waiting for their opportunity. I was not expecting this, but I can't say I'm surprised.

We seem to agree on one thing: that this was a long time coming. For those who've been around long enough to know who urbandale and amotis were, we considered banning Fungi back then, since he, even at that time, had plenty on his rap sheet (most especially with regard to mic spam or joining urbandale/amotis in creating a negative atmosphere in-server). If this had come from anyone but a regular, such behavior would likely have earned a ban a long time ago, but we always chose to give Fungi the benefit of the doubt.

Regarding you: So what can you do? Boycott the server? Boycott the pledge drives? I'm not going to tell you what to do, but you can see for yourself how the admins feel about the regulars. And I'm not just talking about myself either; there have been over a thousand bans on the server, and recently, many of them have been the people you know and love. I don't think that arguing the ban will do anything; if anything it will probably put you on their shit list. So don't do that, as it's not worth it.
However, if this ban has upset you as much as it upset the person who told me about the ban, then don't support the server, financially or otherwise. Quietly.

As Fungi said, we have indeed banned around a 1000 people over the 5+ years that TLD has been around. Take into account that, even with the various steam groups of severe trolls/hackers that had to be purged at times, our ban list is still anywhere between 1/5 and 1/15 as large as other popular groups with rules far more lenient than ours. The Lions' Den ban count seems modest in comparison. We are not banhappy at TLD, as Fungi's case actually proves, since for so long we actually stayed our hands and opted not to ban him. We deliberate a lot over our bans, especially for regulars, and only go through with it when we're confident that those we ban are a detriment to the server.

In closing, please remember that feedback is, as always, not only welcome, but encouraged. We only ask that you remain civil and courteous.

[Leroytirebiter]

I think some are having an issue with favoritism, or at least perceived favoritism, how some (without naming names) aren't held up to the same standard as others. I make no arguments about the validity of this claim, but it's worth noting that some feel this way.

[CallMeVexed]

Who's next?

[Osiris]

Who's next?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here?

[CallMeVexed]

Don't play coy. The administration of every community has server regulars who it has identified as unsavory. These players usually get banned, as it was a "long time coming." I was part of a community's administration once, and have come to hate this dynamic.

It's the largest reason I declined the offer of membership to the Lions when Mav offered. I'm not presuming I would have been given any actual power on the server, but I refuse to be part of a group who sees themselves naturally above anyone else.

There will be more bans of popular server regulars. I'm wondering who is next.

[Ham]

Disregarding the Fungi issue entirely (I have a lot of feelings about it, however), the part that took me quite a while to get over was your stance on donators and what they should expect in return.
I'm assuming your point here is that donators shouldn't expect some form of leadership or favoritism among the server, and I would have to agree with that.
However, one of the biggest donators Fungi is referring to here is a certain regular who donated $150. I prefer not to name names here, but I'm sure some people may have an inkling of an idea.

While I would never expect someone to receieve a higher social standing or the like from donating, I think those people DO deserve a form of appreciation or even thanks. Recalling what had happened on Lighthouse a few nights ago, this regular inquired as to why he had heard nothing back from you or anyone about his donation. This was replied to in such a chastising and rude manner that me and quite a few others were just appalled by it. When he asked where you had written back to him, as you seemed to imply that he had been contacted, you told him that there was a list of people who donated and that he was "free to deal with it". I have the logs to prove this as well.

This is something I would not even have brought up had it not been for your counterargument to Fungi over regulars who donate to the server to keep it running. Did he NEED to donate? No. But he did because he enjoys this server and the people he plays with.

I mean, take for example, a bunch of neighbours pitch in to pave the road in front of their house that badly needed work. Once it's done, the neighbour at the end yells at them, "I don't like you, your dog barks too loud, AND YOU CAN'T DRIVE HERE ANYMORE!" and slams their front door. It's just plain rude and the neighbour seems to be taking his neighbours and their contributions for granted. Obviously, this is an exaggerated example and I don't figure you are just like this end neighbour, but it's an example nonetheless.

That is truly the only point I want to make about this here. I have nothing to say on the other sections because there's not much to say. I would rather you gave more examples or even evidence about this ban being just, because at this point I am still on Fungi's side. However, if there is more solid proof that what he did was a bannable offense, I'd like to see it. That, and I'd really like to see more about this issue anyway, because at this point this counterargument that has been made has not cleared up any questions that I may have had. I just hope I have spoken to you in the way I also expect to be spoken to: Civilly and courteously.

[Atreus]

Recalling what had happened on Lighthouse a few nights ago, this regular inquired as to why he had heard nothing back from you or anyone about his donation. This was replied to in such a chastising and rude manner that me and quite a few others were just appalled by it. When he asked where you had written back to him, as you seemed to imply that he had been contacted, you told him that there was a list of people who donated and that he was "free to deal with it". I have the logs to prove this as well.

This is something I would not even have brought up had it not been for your counterargument to Fungi over regulars who donate to the server to keep it running. Did he NEED to donate? No. But he did because he enjoys this server and the people he plays with.

I'm not surprised at your reaction to that situation, as you saw one small snapshot of a much larger interaction. Basically, as far as the donation itself went: if people who have donated significantly more than him were not initially contacted individually to be specifically thanked for their donation, why should he have been any different? This issue had been discussed a multitude of times in the past, in- and out of server, and I was as polite as anybody could possibly be in every one of those situations.

In addition to that, he seems to forget that, before the donation even occurred, he very purposefully got on my bad side by knowingly and purposefully breaking the server rules. In short, a friend of his was in the server one night singing their heart out. There were multiple complaints, and they were warned to stop multiple times. After the friend refused to do so and received a mute, he opted to purposefully pick up the song where the friend left off. Upon being yet another warning and a mute, he told the administration to fuck off, and was giving a lenient tempban, considering that the situation really deserved a harsher punishment.

In the time following his unbanning, he opted to badmouth the administration on countless occasions in-server, complaining about how incredibly unfair his punishment was. That, combined with his sense of entitlement regarding his donation on a multitude of occasions would wear on anybody's nerves. And yet, he was simply warned rather than gagged, muted, or worse.

Finally, the events came to a head on the night that you speak of, wherein I was finally sick of the way he acted. A player who, on most other servers, would have been permabanned long ago felt the need to push a resolved issue yet again.

Sounds a little bit different knowing the whole story, right?

[Osiris]

It's the largest reason I declined the offer of membership to the Lions when Mav offered.

I assure you, Evilmaverick doesn't have the authority to offer membership to The Lions.

There will be more bans of popular server regulars. I'm wondering who is next.

I'm going to go ahead and quote what Atreus said in the opening post, here:

We are not banhappy at TLD, as Fungi's case actually proves, since for so long we actually stayed our hands and opted not to ban him. We deliberate a lot over our bans, especially for regulars, and only go through with it when we're confident that those we ban are a detriment to the server.

Banning a regular is something we seek to avoid if at all possible. As shown even though the examples so far in this thread, we do so only as a last resort. We'd honestly prefer never to need to ban a regular; however, unfortunately, we are sometimes left with no other choice.

[CallMeVexed]

It's the largest reason I declined the offer of membership to the Lions when Mav offered.

I assure you, Evilmaverick doesn't have the authority to offer membership to The Lions.

Some one gave it to him, or someone chose to offer the courtesty to me through him. Otherwise, you're calling me a liar.

There will be more bans of popular server regulars. I'm wondering who is next.

I'm going to go ahead and quote what Atreus said in the opening post, here:

We are not banhappy at TLD, as Fungi's case actually proves, since for so long we actually stayed our hands and opted not to ban him. We deliberate a lot over our bans, especially for regulars, and only go through with it when we're confident that those we ban are a detriment to the server.

Banning a regular is something we seek to avoid if at all possible. As shown even though the examples so far in this thread, we do so only as a last resort. We'd honestly prefer never to need to ban a regular; however, unfortunately, we are sometimes left with no other choice.

You can quote and cite what information you want, I can't disprove it and I can't say your position is wrong. But, the actuallity is that TLD's administration has earned a reputation for being heavy on the punishment and for targeting server regulars. Words won't change that. There have been bans of regulars in the past, there will be bans of regulars in the future.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Nu4DkZdxCowJ:lions.dongues.net/board/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D15%26t%3D1427%26start%3D0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Why couldn't I get an actual link to that thread? Was it deleted?

[Ham]

I'm not surprised at your reaction to that situation, as you saw one small snapshot of a much larger interaction. Basically, as far as the donation itself went: if people who have donated significantly more than him were not initially contacted individually to be specifically thanked for their donation, why should he have been any different? This issue had been discussed a multitude of times in the past, in- and out of server, and I was as polite as anybody could possibly be in every one of those situations.

In addition to that, he seems to forget that, before the donation even occurred, he very purposefully got on my bad side by knowingly and purposefully breaking the server rules. In short, a friend of his was in the server one night singing their heart out. There were multiple complaints, and they were warned to stop multiple times. After the friend refused to do so and received a mute, he opted to purposefully pick up the song where the friend left off. Upon being yet another warning and a mute, he told the administration to fuck off, and was giving a lenient tempban, considering that the situation really deserved a harsher punishment.

In the time following his unbanning, he opted to badmouth the administration on countless occasions in-server, complaining about how incredibly unfair his punishment was. That, combined with his sense of entitlement regarding his donation on a multitude of occasions would wear on anybody's nerves. And yet, he was simply warned rather than gagged, muted, or worse.

Finally, the events came to a head on the night that you speak of, wherein I was finally sick of the way he acted. A player who, on most other servers, would have been permabanned long ago felt the need to push a resolved issue yet again.

Sounds a little bit different knowing the whole story, right?

Ah, but it doesn't sound that much different to my end.

That first point you've made is really hard for me to get past.

"Basically, as far as the donation itself went: if people who have donated significantly more than him were not initially contacted individually to be specifically thanked for their donation, why should he have been any different?"

This, while not the entire point of your response, is really giving me a form of visceral reaction. The thought that people appear to be 'measured' on their will to help out a place they care about is absolutely not ok in my books. Should you contact someone personally if they donated $2.50? Yes. Should you contact someone who donated $250? Again, the answer is yes. There should be no "you have to donate this much to be appreciated", EVERYONE and EVERY CENT should be appreciated. Needless to say, I am grossed out this was even typed out and thought to be an appropriate repsonse to that issue.

While I don't understand the entire story behind his ban seeing as I was not part of the server, I will just take what I have read here, although I am not positive how relevant it is. Am I to understand that you're using this as a way to back up how you replied to his inquiry about his donation? Is this for me to understand and 'accept' how that situation was handled?

Now, this is the second member I know of that you have "kept around" out of, perhaps, your willingness to give these members a second chance? If that is the case, I really hate to know that these members have to have this hang over their heads for the rest of their stay in The Lions Den. I feel that part of giving someone a second chance is NOT having a mental checkbook, or even a real one, of all their past offenses and exactly who said this and who said that (no matter HOW many years ago it was), just so it can be used at a later date in a case against them.

I don't feel I am being belligerent, regardless of what people may think about me in general. If I really want my opinion to be heard, I keep myself as level-headed as possible. Now, I will say this. I have enjoyed my time in TLD, and I don't want this server to fall apart the way it is threatening to. I feel that people should be allowed to share their opinions with someone and NOT be chastised for it and told that "you have no right to ask for an admin's slant on a situation." I'm someone who likes to see different minds come together and reach a compromise, or have a reconciliation in the event of a severe misunderstanding. Do I want to get banned? No. I want to see this server thrive again, and I don't want to see such a significant gap between admins and regulars. I understand that admins DO have control and power, but I think that they should still be seen as someone approachable and fun to be around, and sadly I have not seen that atmosphere yet.

Again, I don't want any form of conflict, just an understanding from both sides. I feel like both sides of the equation here are really taking this over the top, and I don't think anyone is exempt from it, even myself. We need to share opinions and ideas on the matter and see exactly what the issue is.

[Atreus]

The thought that people appear to be 'measured' on their will to help out a place they care about is absolutely not ok in my books. Should you contact someone personally if they donated $2.50? Yes. Should you contact someone who donated $250? Again, the answer is yes. There should be no "you have to donate this much to be appreciated", EVERYONE and EVERY CENT should be appreciated. Needless to say, I am grossed out this was even typed out and thought to be an appropriate repsonse to that issue.

I think you're misunderstanding me and getting t he opposite meaning out of my words. My entire stance on this is that no matter how much, or little, someone donates, every bit is appreciated and nobody deserves any special treatment whatsoever. I'm not sure how you got anything else out of it?

[Osiris]

Some one gave it to him, or someone chose to offer the courtesty to me through him. Otherwise, you're calling me a liar.

I'm not calling you a liar, If Maverick did indeed offer you Lions membership, he was doing so of his own accord and without the sanction of any admins, as we don't just make people Lions on the spot. That said, it's also possible that there was some miscommunication, and Mav was, say, offering to write up a recruit thread for you. If that was the case, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Perhaps Mav can clear this up when he signs on tomorrow.

You can quote and cite what information you want, I can't disprove it and I can't say your position is wrong. But, the actuallity is that TLD's administration has earned a reputation for being heavy on the punishment and for targeting server regulars. Words won't change that.

I at no point said that we've never banned regulars, nor did I speak to how often it actually happens. I was pointing out how we approach it. Reputation and reality often have very little in common.

[Ham]

The thought that people appear to be 'measured' on their will to help out a place they care about is absolutely not ok in my books. Should you contact someone personally if they donated $2.50? Yes. Should you contact someone who donated $250? Again, the answer is yes. There should be no "you have to donate this much to be appreciated", EVERYONE and EVERY CENT should be appreciated. Needless to say, I am grossed out this was even typed out and thought to be an appropriate repsonse to that issue.

I think you're misunderstanding me and getting t he opposite meaning out of my words. My entire stance on this is that no matter how much, or little, someone donates, every bit is appreciated and nobody deserves any special treatment whatsoever. I'm not sure how you got anything else out of it?

I could go into this, but I'd much rather hear your thoughts on the rest of my reply.

[SlayerGhede]

Being a regular just means you play in the server a lot. That does earn some special treatment. Mainly, they discuss the ban beforehand. You pop in the server and start harassing people, stirring shit, and pissing people off; It's usually one warning then a ban. You play here for a few months, then decide to start shit, you get warning after warning after warning.
Being a donator doesn't mean squat. It's a called a donation for a reason. We don't sell admin slots, we don't sell special privileges. If you give money, the only thing you get is the money goes towards server costs and upgrades, an optional listing in the forum. That's it. That's how it has always been. That is how it will always be. Fungi chose to donate, he then fucked up. If we refunded the money or gave him special treatment for the donation, then essentially we allow people to buy their way out of trouble. Might as well sell "Get out of bans free!" cards. EDIT: whoops misread, thought it was fungi who donated. I'd delete this part but I'd rather you just ignore it. This thread is going off on tangents now.

Also, one ban earning a reputation? Oh man.

[Wraywolf]

Now, this is the second member I know of that you have "kept around" out of, perhaps, your willingness to give these members a second chance? If that is the case, I really hate to know that these members have to have this hang over their heads for the rest of their stay in The Lions Den. I feel that part of giving someone a second chance is NOT having a mental checkbook, or even a real one, of all their past offenses and exactly who said this and who said that (no matter HOW many years ago it was), just so it can be used at a later date in a case against them.

Are you implying that admins shouldn't consider the history of someone's past behavior when considering how to respond to them when there is a need to lay down the law?

If you're an admin and you're considering what to do with a troublemaker, you inherently go "hmm, does this person have a history of this or is this their first time acting this way?".

It's not like these regulars are constantly reminded they're pushing their limits. All the bans of regulars I've seen happen haven't used a strike system, they've been at the admin's discretion.

[Rhysie]

Ah, but it doesn't sound that much different to my end.

That first point you've made is really hard for me to get past.

"Basically, as far as the donation itself went: if people who have donated significantly more than him were not initially contacted individually to be specifically thanked for their donation, why should he have been any different?"

This, while not the entire point of your response, is really giving me a form of visceral reaction. The thought that people appear to be 'measured' on their will to help out a place they care about is absolutely not ok in my books. Should you contact someone personally if they donated $2.50? Yes. Should you contact someone who donated $250? Again, the answer is yes. There should be no "you have to donate this much to be appreciated", EVERYONE and EVERY CENT should be appreciated. Needless to say, I am grossed out this was even typed out and thought to be an appropriate repsonse to that issue.

I understand where you're coming from, but personally, I disagree with the need for pandering. I was more than happy to donate the last drive, and the only gratification I needed was knowing I supported my favorite TF2 server. Unless you're doing it to seek attention, or trying to gain something from shelling out cash, that should be all that's necessary.

2cents on that tidbit

[Ham]

Now, this is the second member I know of that you have "kept around" out of, perhaps, your willingness to give these members a second chance? If that is the case, I really hate to know that these members have to have this hang over their heads for the rest of their stay in The Lions Den. I feel that part of giving someone a second chance is NOT having a mental checkbook, or even a real one, of all their past offenses and exactly who said this and who said that (no matter HOW many years ago it was), just so it can be used at a later date in a case against them.

Are you implying that admins shouldn't consider the history of someone's past behavior when considering how to respond to them when there is a need to lay down the law?

If you're an admin and you're considering what to do with a troublemaker, you inherently go "hmm, does this person have a history of this or is this their first time acting this way?".

It's not like these regulars are constantly reminded they're pushing their limits. All the bans of regulars I've seen happen haven't used a strike system, they've been at the admin's discretion.

I do feel the admins should have a history, but should they share said history at any given opportunity lest they slip up? No, I don't think that's alright at all. Should they keep it at hand and discuss it with the ADMINS should there be some disturbance from that member? Yes, I think that actually promotes progress as opposed to saying, "Well, this guy did THIS in the past so I really have no right to have to thank him or appreciate his donation." The information regarding that regular's ban seemed really out of the blue and didn't exactly strengthen the argument. Too many people, I feel, are playing in the server with something looming overhead everytime they play. They should learn from their past, yes, and admins should keep some form of record hidden from the general public, but they should not have to live in an absolute fear every time they come into the server. Some people, but not all, I feel, deserve at least this much respect.

I hope my point is coming across in this reply. It still feels muddy, but hopefully SOMETHING shines through this mess of a paragraph.

[CallMeVexed]

You can quote and cite what information you want, I can't disprove it and I can't say your position is wrong. But, the actuallity is that TLD's administration has earned a reputation for being heavy on the punishment and for targeting server regulars. Words won't change that.

I at no point said that we've never banned regulars, nor did I speak to how often it actually happens. I was pointing out how we approach it. Reputation and reality often have very little in common.

They may have little in common, but they do affect each other intimatly. There have been bans of regulars (reality), from that the community has formed an opinion of the administration (reputation), from that opinion will steam action--whether it be posting on the forum, avoiding the server, or refraining from contributing to the community.

[Ham]

I understand where you're coming from, but personally, I disagree with the need for pandering. I was more than happy to donate the last drive, and the only gratification I needed was knowing I supported my favorite TF2 server. Unless you're doing it to seek attention, or trying to gain something from shelling out cash, that should be all that's necessary.

2cents on that tidbit

See, I really can't wrap my head around this point of view. Perhaps the regular who had donated asked the admins too often about his donation, but I can't be sure and I won't make assumptions. My issue with the entire thing is that he even had to ask. Do you expect special treatment from a donation? No. Are you trying to gain something from donating to a place you care about? Again, no. But are you saying that basic common courtesy should be abated? My point is simply that a member should be thanked for even taking the time out of their day and the money out of their wallets to do something good for their community, whether it be in a game or somewhere else entirely. If people feel that's too much to ask, then I simply don't know what to tell you.

However, it is quite late here (by my standards, anyhow), and I'm just going to head off to bed. I hope this is here in the morning... and not too out of control.

[CallMeVexed]

Wait, does recieving a 'thank you' count as "special treatment"?

[SlayerGhede]

Well, when I donated, it was as thanks for the fun and the servertimes. I made a lot of friends here at TLD and I wanted to give something back. I gave what I could, it wasn't much, but it was something. Can't remember if I was thanked, and honestly I don't care.

These days, charities have spoiled people. Donate $20, get a tote bag! ... so you bought a tote bag to go with your warm fuzzies? I can get a tote bag for cheaper, so why not just let me have the warm fuzzies and keep the $20?

[Wraywolf]

I do feel the admins should have a history, but should they share said history at any given opportunity lest they slip up? No, I don't think that's alright at all. Should they keep it at hand and discuss it with the ADMINS should there be some disturbance from that member? Yes, I think that actually promotes progress as opposed to saying, "Well, this guy did THIS in the past so I really have no right to have to thank him or appreciate his donation." The information regarding that regular's ban seemed really out of the blue and didn't exactly strengthen the argument. Too many people, I feel, are playing in the server with something looming overhead everytime they play. They should learn from their past, yes, and admins should keep some form of record hidden from the general public, but they should not have to live in an absolute fear every time they come into the server. Some people, but not all, I feel, deserve at least this much respect.

I hope my point is coming across in this reply. It still feels muddy, but hopefully SOMETHING shines through this mess of a paragraph.

1) Where did the issue of admins sharing history even come up? I mean that's not an issue in this whole thing I don't think. I'm confused. If this is in responce to Atreus giving you the whole story about the donator thing to better contextualize what went down, I feel Atreus was fully in the right for sharing what he did. Since the issue was threatening his and TLDs standing and reputation, disclosing the details was a perfectly sane option. I really have to wonder what you find so gauche about the whole thing.

2) Everyone who donates gets the same props. If someone donates and doesn't feel appreciated enough for their contribution I have to really wonder if such a person understands what the purpose of donating actually is.

3) I have honestly no clue where you're getting the impression that people are living in fear of admin reprisal when they play on TLD. Fungi might have had a guilty conscience, but I'm going to just disagree with your assertion that people who play on lions fear the admins coming down on them.

Furthermore, I'd like to say something about TLD supposedly being hard on its players.

TLD is the only Tf2 server I play on anymore. The main reason is for the community, but the other important reason is because it's one of the few places I actually feel somewhat safe. I'm a queer man who really hates to hear people casually drop homophobic slurs, and I am tired of getting dogpiled on when I try to get people to knock it off. TLD, with its banning of derogatory slurs and its commitment to banning abusive people who only contribute negativity has made the den a really important place for me when I play tf2, because I don't feel afraid when I'm there, and I never knew just how used to being afraid I was before I started playing somewhere that I could reasonably expect to be safe.

So I don't know who you're talking about when you say that regulars in the lions den feel afraid. Because I sure don't.

[Wraywolf]

Wait, does recieving a 'thank you' count as "special treatment"?

No, receiving a thank you while no one else gets one, or something on that caliber (this uses the more literal definition of 'special', to mean something unique or exceptional) is what would count as special treatment.

[Ham]

1) Where did the issue of admins sharing history even come up? I mean that's not an issue in this whole thing I don't think. I'm confused. If this is in responce to Atreus giving you the whole story about the donator thing to better contextualize what went down, I feel Atreus was fully in the right for sharing what he did. Since the issue was threatening his and TLDs standing and reputation, disclosing the details was a perfectly sane option. I really have to wonder what you find so gauche about the whole thing.

It came up in such a petty manner, though. All I mentioned was that someone had donated and was brushed aside, and I was given the entire backstory to his ban. It seemed rather excessive. If the ban was that important, he could have just mentioned that there WAS a ban and he had disrespected an admin. But now the entire story is out there in plain sight, and it seems to be kind of an unprofessional thing to do. That's just my opnion on it.

2) Everyone who donates gets the same props. If someone donates and doesn't feel appreciated enough for their contribution I have to really wonder if such a person understands what the purpose of donating actually is.

This member said he was never contacted. That is my point. If someone isn't contacted or acknowledged, then no, they weren't appreciated. I honest don't know how I can make this point any clearer, and at this point I tire of having to explain the same thing over and over.

3) I have honestly no clue where you're getting the impression that people are living in fear of admin reprisal when they play on TLD. Fungi might have had a guilty conscience, but I'm going to just disagree with your assertion that people who play on lions fear the admins coming down on them.
.....So I don't know who you're talking about when you say that regulars in the lions den feel afraid. Because I sure don't.

I was definitely not talking about only Fungi. I know quite a few people who get nervous and tense when they see a slew of admins coming into the server. I won't name names because I respect their privacy and feel I don't need to involve them.
Also, I really hate to say this, but I have seen you play in the server twice since I've been here. Now, I'm not saying you weren't at one point a regular, because you obviously have been if you are a lion. What I am getting at here is that you can't really bring in old information to a new issue. As in, saying "I don't know what you're talking about when you that the regulars in tld feel afraid because I sure don't" doesn't apply if you haven't been here when this whole thing all began. I can't word this properly, but I think my main point here is that I don't exactly understand your supposed involvement with all of this. I really don't mean to be rude, but I suppose I have to settle with being somewhat blunt.

Ok, now I'm really going to bed.

[Wraywolf]

I fail to see how I have less of a stake in this than you do. Please don't imply I'm speaking about things that don't involve me when just earlier you were saying how you wanted to hear everyone's thoughts.

[Fungi]

I understand that nothing I say here will change my ban, because you've made up your minds. However, I am here for the

disinformation

and setting the record straight.
From what I hear, you're the one spreading disinformation about me. This is why I made the post (also people were asking about it). I posted it somewhere public because it was truthful and I had/have nothing to fear from you reading it. I also hear that you're claiming that I persisted, on multiple occasions, to continue to "act up" after being warned. That is simply not true; I always stopped when asked.

So, having a somewhat unusual handle, happening to speak in voice chat, and being born with a voice that isn't particularly feminine, gives one carte blanche to call them a trap/call them a man, even when asked to stop? To be quite honest, this reminds me of the people that say that an attractive woman who has on a skimpy outfit is "asking for" anything that comes her way.

Yeah, comparing me to a rapist, that's the high road. So subtle too. If by "somewhat unusual handle" you mean "flagrant flamebait", then yes, you are correct, and I took it. I hate deception and I call people on their bullshit; it's what I do, and it makes me easy to troll. Speaking of which, why weren't they muted/kicked/banned for micspam? It got so bad I muted them, at which point everything stopped. Yet you claim that I persisted even through the warning to stop, which was well after the incident was over and done.

We've always made it *really* clear that if someone donates, they should expect nothing in return, because donating to something like this with the expectation of something in return is not the reason to donate.

You're missing the point. The point was that the donor said that they were never thanked. Instead of rectifying the situation right then and there with a sincere (or even an insincere) "thank you", you said something to the effect of "You don't own the server, we do." You were not only unwilling to admit that maybe you might have made a mistake, you were being ungrateful and downright rude to someone who significantly supported the server, simply because you hold the hammers.

For those who've been around long enough to know who urbandale and amotis were, we considered banning Fungi back then, since he, even at that time, had plenty on his rap sheet (most especially with regard to mic spam or joining urbandale/amotis in creating a negative atmosphere in-server). If this had come from anyone but a regular, such behavior would likely have earned a ban a long time ago, but we always chose to give Fungi the benefit of the doubt.

You constantly refer back to this incident as if it's proof that I deserve to be banned. Do you have any actual proof?
From what I remember about them, they were guilty of using : 3 (not >: 3) tags in their names and minor micspam. Yet you are constantly bringing this up, playing guilt by association and implying that what I did was banworthy. If it was banworthy, why wasn't I banned? And don't tell me it's because I was a regular; they were just as much regulars as anyone else.
It seems like you're trying to reference an episode that most people don't remember, and just to say "Yeah, Fungi deserved to be banned because he was a miscreant then too".

In closing, please remember that feedback is, as always, not only welcome, but encouraged. We only ask that you remain civil and courteous.

I'm surprised that I haven't been banned here too. Because I've been barred from all other means of contact with you, as mentioned in my post; cannot appeal, cannot talk to. And that's the thing: you never talked to me about this. Never once did you or any admin say "Hey, Fungi, would you mind toning it down a bit? We feel you're creating a negative atmosphere in the community." Instead, you chose to talk about it in your admin clubhouse where everyone is in agreement, thus all other opinions must be wrong/come from jerks so disregard them. If that is the atmosphere you choose to set for the server, I can now understand why so many people are up in arms over this.

[CallMeVexed]

Also, one ban earning a reputation? Oh man.

...

Well, when I donated, it was as thanks for the fun and the servertimes. I made a lot of friends here at TLD and I wanted to give something back. I gave what I could, it wasn't much, but it was something. Can't remember if I was thanked, and honestly I don't care.

These days, charities have spoiled people. Donate $20, get a tote bag! ... so you bought a tote bag to go with your warm fuzzies? I can get a tote bag for cheaper, so why not just let me have the warm fuzzies and keep the $20

You seem to be missing more information than you thought. There have been a number of players banned or reprimanded at the shock of the community. Did you read Fungi's post to see his side of the story before posting? Or did you immediately side with the admins because you wear the same tag? Here's one of the comments from one of the regulars of TLD #2

*************** posted on August 08, 2012 @ 6:21am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFgR0m-9FmM

The Lion's Den in a nutshell.

The Lions are too far removed from their server community. The administration does have an unsavory reputation.

Perhaps it's because these aren't your friends being excluded that you can be so flippant about this matter.

...

3) I have honestly no clue where you're getting the impression that people are living in fear of admin reprisal when they play on TLD. Fungi might have had a guilty conscience, but I'm going to just disagree with your assertion that people who play on lions fear the admins coming down on them.

...

So I don't know who you're talking about when you say that regulars in the lions den feel afraid. Because I sure don't.

...

I fail to see how I have less of a stake in this than you do. Please don't imply I'm speaking about things that don't involve me when just earlier you were saying how you wanted to hear everyone's thoughts.

See above. We who make up TLD community do play with a sense of dread, we have seen too many of our friends banned to ingore the possiblitiy that someone else is going to be forced out. The banning of Fungi is acting as a catalyst, pointing focus onto the action of the admins, causing the community to ask among themselves, "Who's next?"

This does concern you. I'm not saying you don't have a stake in this. As long as you wear that tag, or play on the server you are part of this. But know where you stand. You are not in the same position as Fungi, you are not in the same position as Ham, you are not in the same position as I. You don't stand the posibility of being barred from the server. Furthermore, I hardly see you on the server, so I think it's safe to assume you don't have enough of a rapport with server regulars to fear them being banned, you certainly don't feel anything for Fungi, Void, .

We who've posted here, and are being vocal in our protest understand that we are putting ourselves at risk. With everyword I type I put my self higher on the admin's shit list. Who's next? Probably me, maybe Ham. But even if it's not us, it certainly won't be a lion.

[Osiris]

I also hear that you're claiming that I persisted, on multiple occasions, to continue to "act up" after being warned. That is simply not true; I always stopped when asked.

I can recall several times when I've had to warn you more than once to knock something off.

Yeah, comparing me to a rapist, that's the high road. So subtle too. If by "somewhat unusual handle" you mean "flagrant flamebait", then yes, you are correct, and I took it. I hate deception and I call people on their bullshit; it's what I do, and it makes me easy to troll.

This angers me on a fair few levels. If you don't like Atreus' comparison, perhaps mine will fit better. What you did was exactly like insulting and harassing someone for not fitting into your ideas of gender norms... Wait no that's exactly what you did.
I'm not sure if you're aware, but we run a very much LGBT friendly server. So insults and harassment based on things like that are entirely out of line.
As to the supposed deception, let me spell it out very clearly. Not fitting gender norms does not and never will equal deception.
Also, not once did Atreus call you a rapist.

Speaking of which, why weren't they muted/kicked/banned for micspam? It got so bad I muted them, at which point everything stopped.

Nobody ever complained about them Mic spamming.

I'm surprised that I haven't been banned here too. Because I've been barred from all other means of contact with you, as mentioned in my post; cannot appeal, cannot talk to.

You made a comment about Atreus removing you from steam friends. Why would anyone keep someone banned from their server on their steam friends list?

[TWNTY7]

I want to see this server thrive again, and I don't want to see such a significant gap between admins and regulars. ... We need to share opinions and ideas on the matter and see exactly what the issue is.

This is what I would like as well. I actually started out playing L4D2 with another Lion, had never played TF2 and he invited me to play on TLD. TLD was a server where people respected each other and everyone knew each other. I donated before I became a member because I loved playing on TLD. It was always "our" server even before I became a Lion. It was not, and is not, "yours" or "mine". I accepted my membership and adminship because I care about the TLD community. A lot. Maybe you (and the others in arms) feel like Admins are removed from the community and don't care what happens to it. This cannot be further from the truth. Admins aren't paid to wake up to admin triggers at 3am; we do it because we love the server and community. As for sharing opinions and ideas on the matter... for a while now I have observed a shift in the attitude on the server from since I began playing: it's less welcoming and more hostile. Now, not stating this as an admin, but as a member of this community, I don't expect anything except respect. And I honestly don't feel like this is something out of the ordinary to ask for.

I feel that part of giving someone a second chance is NOT having a mental checkbook, or even a real one, of all their past offenses and exactly who said this and who said that (no matter HOW many years ago it was), just so it can be used at a later date in a case against them.

When I signed on last, I had to warn someone to not use their mic to narrate everything (e.g. "I'm walking over to a health pack now") and to not scream every time they took damage - they stayed quiet for a few minutes and return to what they were doing shortly thereafter. I gave them a final warning, which they heeded insofar as until I left the server (I don't know what happened afterwards). I should not be giving out multiple warnings to the same person. But they were a "regular", and so I was more lenient than perhaps I should have been. If I give someone a second chance, I give them a second chance based on their sincerity (e.g. "I'm sorry about ________, I promise I won't do it again" or "I didn't know _________ felt that way, I will not _________ anymore" or even "Okay, sorry, I won't do it again") I am trusting that they will not do what I had warned them about. If they do repeat said bad behavior, no matter how long down the road, they are breaking that trust/agreement. When they are temp/perma/muted/etc., people seem to "forget" that they had been warned in the past - which, in my opinion, is where this "mental checkbook" of offenses come in. I should not have to remind them, as they should have learned from their past mistakes and been sincere in their apology.

You don't stand the posibility of being barred from the server. Furthermore, I hardly see you on the server, so I think it's safe to assume you don't have enough of a rapport with server regulars to fear them being banned, you certainly don't feel anything for Fungi, Void, .

We who've posted here, and are being vocal in our protest understand that we are putting ourselves at risk. With everyword I type I put my self higher on the admin's shit list. Who's next? Probably me, maybe Ham. But even if it's not us, it certainly won't be a lion.

No one is exempt from being banned from the server, just to clarify. Lion or not. And to insinuate that not playing daily on the server means you don't care about the community is rather ludicrous.

[Giver]

Throwing this out there -

Speaking as a regular that has been in some... situations with admins before (I can honestly say I'm surprised I've lasted this long) I totally understand Fungineer reacting the way he did. Although we don't hold regulars to any special standards (as opposed to pubs), as a regular you get that special feeling of being one of the guys. When you get slapped with a "CANNOT PROTEST" ban, you suddenly realize that although you were part of the community, you don't get held to special standards no matter how one of the guys you felt. I myself have felt this sensation various times, and I'm sure I whined a lot and whatnot. (Consider this a formal apology for any bullshit I've pulled in the past, 'troos)

But this isn't about me. Fungineer's ban reasoning seems totally reasonable to me. I've seen regulars get banned in the past. I've seen lions get banned in the past. You know what happened? There was a bunch of drama bullshit for maybe up to a few weeks, and then everybody stopped caring.

But even if it's not us, it certainly won't be a lion.

You have no idea how wrong you are. Although it's true that becoming a lion means you're on that "seriously one of the guys" list, lions have been and will be banned. It just so happens that many lions are chosen because they dont pull bullshit stuff a lot, which kind of makes sense when you think about it. BUT, lions are held to no higher standards. Seriously, I'm not kidding. I've seen this shit go down on multiple occasions.

Basically, just because you're a regular, you're not held to any higher standards. You get put in the inactive section of lions friends or get kicked from the group for whatever reason. You get banned if you... what was it... micspam, be snarky, harass, and sexually harass. What I'm not comfortable with is the amount of media this fungineer thing has gotten. He got banned for doing stupid shit. The admins have that power. Some people will like it some people won't. With my experience, that's how shit happens; not just here, but in the world, man.

For what it's worth, being able to play on TLD on a free to play game is a total privilege. There's ten billion some-odd other servers for you to play on. TLD has it's rules and it has it's limits for a reason. It's what makes TLD special.

As for Ham and seeing the server thrive; it's pretty thrivey. At night it's tough to get in, and people play on weekday afternoons. It's never really gotten more busy than that. As for activity from the lions themselves, that fluctuates.

Threw in my 2 cents. Yay!

[VMDX]

Here are my thoughts on the "state of the server," which seems to be what this thread has turned into.

• I agree with Ham that there is a significant gap between admins and regulars. I find it troublesome, because administration is difficult, and it is difficult to judge people when one is not actively playing with them / first hand experiencing their interaction. Second-hand reports are hard to call dispassionate.
• I like TLD administration in the fact that obvious trolls are swiftly and harshly dealt with.
• The gap between admins and regulars make it difficult to dialogue and work issues out between, what I will call, "regulars who may bother some yet just need someone to point out some things they can be aware of", and "administrators who act in reaction to reports instead of dialogue proactively to identify potential problems with regulars".
• From a new TLD player's perspective, it may be difficult to appreciate the administrators when most of the interaction is done through action (ban/kick/mute/gag) coupled with relatively harsh / condescending words (in my opinion).
• The regularly playing Lions that lead by example (meant2live comes to mind) in attempting to be sociable and lead server conversation / interaction in a positive way are generally respected. I remember that meant attempted to dialogue with The Void before his ban, and I have had the pleasure of playing L4D with him recently (with deep reservations at the beginning! but he put those to rest).
• I do agree that there is a vibe of unease amongst even the most friendly, innocent regulars that I imagine would never be banned - I speak from receiving private messages from these players. I've seen players avoid text chat because of the presence of admins watching #tld-relay. The server mood considerably tightens when an admin comes to play ("?? who is this lion that no one has seen before and seems to be telling people to stop doing XYZ left and right and not really playing the game?") and I believe this opens up some people to point out the oddity of coming to "play" when it's not really playing - which is interpreted as admin disrespect, rightfully so, but they have opened themselves up to it. It really is an odd situation.

My ultimate summation comes to this: The server crowd has evolved. The admins got their position of power by playing a long time ago and gaining the respect of the server through friendly interaction and keeping the game fun. This no longer happens as many of them do not play. The newer players see admins handing out discipline, and little else. This breeds a fear of the admins, and disrespect leaks out.

[VMDX]

Other quick thought:

• I think the donation point is being overblown and the disrepect both ways there is a consequence of the larger problem (detailed in my post above).

[Beef Wellington]

I don't know who you're talking about when you say that regulars in the lions den feel afraid. Because I sure don't.

For me anyway, It’s been nerve wracking to play in the Lion’s with the admins, ever since bigbody was banned for one day because he “Seems obsessed with punching heavy, no matter the situation.” (link) I just can’t be myself when the admins are on. If they can get offended by punching heavies, then anything I might say in voicechat may offend them as well.

a friend of his was in the server one night singing their heart out. There were multiple complaints, and they were warned to stop multiple times. After the friend refused to do so and received a mute, he opted to purposefully pick up the song where the friend left off. Upon being yet another warning and a mute, he told the administration to fuck off, and was giving a lenient tempban, considering that the situation really deserved a harsher punishment.

Just because a few people didn't enjoy that person's singing, doesn't mean he or she needs to be muted from the entire server.
Whenever another player in the server annoys me, I don’t go to the admins and ask for that player to be muted. Instead, I just go to my TF2 menu screen and just mute him or her on my side, and that’s that. I do this because I recognize that it’s my problem that I find that person annoying, and he or she shouldn’t be punished by being muted from the entire server. Some people may enjoy that person’s singing or talking.

[wravey]

What I'm not comfortable with is the amount of media this fungineer thing has gotten. He got banned for doing stupid shit. The admins have that power. Some people will like it some people won't. With my experience, that's how shit happens; not just here, but in the world, man.

This times infinity.
It is fucking astonishing the admins are even discussing anything with you beyond: our server, our rules. You see the rules every time you join the server, you know what happens when you break rules. Mommy isn't going to save you from daddy grounding you this time. Grow the fuck up.





Also, tf2 blows.

[CubanRefugee]

I wasn't going to bother responding to this whole thing, because I think it's stupid. Someone broke the rules, and after years of leniency, finally got banned for harassment, not being silly, not a little mic spam, harassment of another person. I don't care who you are, or what your issue is with another person, harassment on our server is NEVER OK.

Beef, I'm glad you replied, it's because of you that I'm even bothering.

1. "I just can't be myself when the admins are on."

This has been said to me by a few people, to which I reply: If you feel you can't be yourself, what's your "normal" self like that you fear you might get banned? Do you constantly drop racial/sexual/gender epithets or slurs? Do you constantly hog the mic with nonsense? Do you feel the urge to belittle random people who have done absolutely nothing to you except for maybe kill you on a video game?

If the answer is no to any of those things, then you should have no fear of being yourself. The only reason people fear action by the admins is because they think that something they're doing might actually be action-worthy.

2. "Just because a few people didn't enjoy that person's singing, doesn't mean he or she needs to be muted from the entire server."

This is where most of you have NO IDEA what's going on behind the scenes. You may like that person's singing. You may think it's hilarious. Behind the curtain, we have multiple people IM'ing, texting, calling, etc an admin reporting the person. Would you rather have us tell the people to suck it up and mute client side, which equals ignoring it as an admin, and possibly having them quit playing the game because of the annoyance, just because someone thinks it's hilarious to spew out their rendition of Baby Got Back?

[VMDX]

Singing, in my opinion, is one of those things that usually ends up annoying more than entertaining. Beef, I love your singing! But for simplicity's sake, I do indeed support the 'no singing' rule... just cause how do you say "yes, beef can sing, but no, random singing troll, you cannot!"?

[Sashi]

Just reading through the topic, this is what I see:

"You did this!"
"Here is the reason for that."
"You can't just tell people what others did!"

What the heck is that. If I do something wrong, I want it repeated over and over again so I don't forget and do it again. Honestly, I want a list in place, viewable to the public, that's updated with information every time someone get warned. Less misunderstandings and people know exactly where they stand. And if a regular/lion does get banned, it'd be a lot less people complaining if there's list of all their warnings viewable to the public.

About the gap between admins and regulars, I do agree about there being one. Over the last year or so, I could count the times I've seen an admin on #2 in one hand (most of them in the last month). I'm sure they're working in the background skimming the relay and they almost always respond quickly to admin alerts, but I won't believe that they have a real idea of how the server is doing without seeing how people play or how voice chat is used. In the last month or so, this has improved a lot, though.

[CubanRefugee]

Also, on the subject of heavy handed admin'ing. I'd like to point out that I've been personally asked to mute/gag about 3/4s of the people in this thread due to heavy mic usage, negative attitude, and rudeness, but I don't, because it's a single person complaining, and when I ask, "Are you sure it's not just because you're not a big fan of that person?" the conversation 99% of the time is:

X - "Well, yeah, I can't stand him/her."
Me - "So are you sure that's not clouding your opinion?"
X - "Probably. >:|"
Me - "Maybe for now you should mute them client side, but if I hear other complaints, that'll change."

When Atreus and I play, and someone complains about another player and tries to report them. The dialogue between us ALWAYS goes this way. Mutes/gags/kicks/bans aren't just handed out whenever. There's a lot of deliberation and discussion behind it.

[Beef Wellington]

1. "I just can't be myself when the admins are on."

This has been said to me by a few people, to which I reply: If you feel you can't be yourself, what's your "normal" self like that you fear you might get banned? Do you constantly drop racial/sexual/gender epithets or slurs? Do you constantly hog the mic with nonsense? Do you feel the urge to belittle random people who have done absolutely nothing to you except for maybe kill you on a video game?

If the answer is no to any of those things, then you should have no fear of being yourself. The only reason people fear action by the admins is because they think that something they're doing might actually be action-worthy.

My answer is indeed, "no" to all those things listed above. However, I think the Void, bigbody, and Fungineer would pass that test too.

2. "Just because a few people didn't enjoy that person's singing, doesn't mean he or she needs to be muted from the entire server."

This is where most of you have NO IDEA what's going on behind the scenes. You may like that person's singing. You may think it's hilarious. Behind the curtain, we have multiple people IM'ing, texting, calling, etc an admin reporting the person. Would you rather have us tell the people to suck it up and mute client side, which equals ignoring it as an admin, and possibly having them quit playing the game because of the annoyance, just because someone thinks it's hilarious to spew out their rendition of Baby Got Back?

I'm sure anyone can figure out where the mute button is. I can't imagine anyone rage quitting because they didn't want to mute that person themselves.

[wravey]

I'm sure anyone can figure out where the mute button is.

Reusing a post from about a year ago.

I end up muting a bunch of people and then tf2 becomes a bunch of one sided conversations and thus I get bored and quit with a sour memory of playing TF2.

It is very annoying to have people muted and ultimately makes the game no fun. If you can't refrain from singing maybe you should start a youtube channel and sing on video for money.